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SHOP建筑事務所負責人關于設計技術應用的訪談第1張圖片
▲ 去年,布魯克林大廈成為了布魯克林最高的建筑。圖片來源:SHOP建筑事務所
The Brooklyn Tower became the tallest building in Brooklyn last year. Image is courtesy of SHoP Architects

SHOP建筑事務所的負責人知道布魯克林大廈將變得越來越像“屬于布魯克林的帝國大廈”
SHoP Architects principal knew Brooklyn Tower would be "like the Empire State Building of Brooklyn"

由專筑網江鵬,小R編譯

SHOP建筑事務所的負責人格雷格·帕斯夸雷利(Gregg Pasquarelli)和約翰·切羅內(John Cerone)在采訪中表示,數字技術的早期應用以及紐約市建筑行業高強度的競爭性工作機制都幫助SHOP建筑事務所取得了今天的成功。

Pasquarelli是1996年創立SHOP建筑事務所的五名建筑師之一,Cerone是2008年加入的員工,自2020年以來一直擔任負責人,他們在接受Dezeen采訪時談到了工作室的起源,他向Dezeen講述了該工作室的起源,該工作室最近的項目包括布魯克林塔樓和世界上最瘦的紐約西57街111號超高層摩天大樓。

Early adoption of digital technology and the competitive nature of working in the architectural "pressure cooker" of New York City helped SHoP Architects become successful, say principals Gregg Pasquarelli and John Cerone in this interview.
Pasquarelli, one of five architects who founded SHoP Architects 1996, and Cerone, an employee since 2008 and principal since 2020, spoke to Dezeen about the origins of the studio whose recent projects include the Brooklyn Tower and 111 W 57th, the skinniest supertall skyscraper in the world.

SHOP建筑事務所負責人關于設計技術應用的訪談第2張圖片
▲ 巴克萊中心展示了數字化制造在設計中的潛力。圖片來源:Iwan Baan
Barclays Center demonstrated the potential for digital fabrication in design. Photo is by Iwan Baan


布魯克林大廈,最近高度達到了325米,現在是布魯克林最具辨識度的地標建筑之一,部分原因是由于特殊的分區,這意味著幾乎從該區的任何地方都可以看到這棟塔樓。

Pasquarelli說:“這座建筑是唯一一座按照這種高度模數劃分的建筑,我們知道它看著會有點像布魯克林的帝國大廈�!�

“我們的設計想確保,無論你在城市的哪一個街區,從布魯克林的任何地方看,你都會覺得自己在看向建筑的正面�!�

他補充說道,建筑師應該在布魯克林也應建造“嚴肅的建筑”,而不僅僅是在曼哈頓。


“布魯克林五大標志性建筑中的兩座”

在談到2012年該工作室設計開放的1.9萬座的體育場時,Pasquarelli說道:“布魯克林為什么要建一座二流的高樓?它有真正的天際線。這是一個非常適合居住的地方。我為我們設計了那座建筑感到自豪,為我們設計了巴克萊中心(Barclays Center)感到自豪�!�

“也許有了布魯克林博物館、摩天輪和布魯克林大橋,我們就擁有了布魯克林五大標志性建筑中的兩座,我感到無比自豪�!�

負責人將他們在紐約的成功與SHOP事務所在建筑設計過程中早期應用的數字技術、與開發商密切合作的意愿以及城市的競爭性機制聯系起來,Pasquarelli將其稱為建筑行業的“壓力鍋”。

Pasquarelli說:“紐約的建筑密度和這里的人們確實影響了這個項目�!�

Cerone補充說:“紐約總是在變化。沒有什么是永恒的,但它需要真實,人們應該分辨出主動與被動變革的區別所在�!�

Brooklyn Tower, which recently topped out at 325 metres, is now one of Brooklyn's most recognisable landmarks thanks in part to special zoning which means it is visible from almost anywhere in the borough.
"This building – which is the only zoned for that kind of height – we knew would be kind of like the Empire State Building of Brooklyn," said Pasquarelli.
"We wanted to make sure that no matter what grid you were on, looking at it from wherever you were in Brooklyn, you felt like you were looking at the front."
He added that architects should be making "serious architecture in Brooklyn" and not just in Manhattan.

"Two of the top-five buildings in Brooklyn"
"Why should Brooklyn have a second-grade tower? It's got a real skyline. It's a fantastic place to live," he said. "I'm proud that we did that building and I'm proud that we did the Barclays Center," he said, in reference to the studio's 19,000-seater sports arena that opened in 2012.
"Maybe with the Brooklyn Museum, the Wonder Wheel, and the Brooklyn Bridge, we got two of the top five buildings in Brooklyn, and I'm super proud."
The principals relate the success they have had in the city of New York to SHoP’s early implementation of digital technologies in the architectural process, a willingness to work closely with developers and the competitive nature of the city, which Pasquarelli referred to as an architectural "pressure cooker".
"The intensity of New York and the people here really affect the program," said Pasquarelli.
"New York is always changing. Nothing is permanent, but it needs to be authentic and people can tell when something is forced, not authentic," added Cerone.

SHOP建筑事務所負責人關于設計技術應用的訪談第3張圖片
▲ Meatpacking區的Porterhouse有一個完全基于數字化模式制作的立面,攝影:Seong Kwon
Porter House in the Meatpacking District had a facade fabricated completely based on digital files. Photo is by Seong Kwon


SHOP事務所很早就采用了一些數字化設計建筑立面的技術,比如巴克萊中心(Barclays Center)和Porterhouse。Porterhouse的立面是定制的,懸挑在曼哈頓Meatpacking區的一座老建筑上。

創建非常詳細的制造計劃,甚至有時能夠幫助支付實驗方法的成本,有助于向開發人員證明方法。

Pasquarelli談到公司成立初期時說:“我們想,看,這是紐約。我們都在爭奪這個島的每一寸土地。如果我們不能融入并使用開發者的語言進行交流,我們便不可能真正創造并推動我們所能夠做到的極限�!�

Pasquarelli說:“這項技術允許工作室通過示意圖模型來實現設計預期,不僅展示了建筑的外觀,還展示了其建造過程�!�

他說:“我希望記者們能對過去20年的建筑渲染圖與現實建造進行一次批判,然后回顧我所有的競爭對手,展示他們的渲染效果以及最終建成的建筑外觀�!�

“并根據建筑師兌現承諾的程度對他們進行評分,因為我知道我們會贏得這場競賽�!�


科技是為了建造更美麗的建筑

對于擅長技術研發的Cerone來說,這項技術是達到目的預期的一種設計手段,是避免建筑稱為“噱頭”的一種方法。

Cerone說:“所有的技術都不是為了技術本身,而是為了讓這些美麗的建筑變得有意義�!彼a充說,工作室正在完善一個系統,這個系統將擁有一個數字數據庫,為承包商和開發商提供SHOP設計各個方面的建筑規格和制造元素庫。

雖然團隊強調了精簡生產和與開發者溝通以提高效率的重要性,但他們也承認某些項目所代表的貧富差距。

SHoP adopted technologies early on that allowed them to digitally plan the fabrication of ornate facades like at the Barclays Center, and at Porter House, a building with a custom-fabricated facade that is cantilevered off an older building in the Meatpacking District of Manhattan.
Creating highly detailed fabrication plans and even at times helping to cover the cost of the experimental methods help prove the approach to developers.
"We were like, look this is New York," said Pasquarelli of the early days of the firm. "We're all fighting over every inch of this island. If we don't engage and speak in the language of the developers, we're not going to ever really be able to build and push the limits of what we can do."
Pasquarelli said the technology allowed the studio to deliver on design expectations by coming up with schematic models that not only showed what the buildings would look like, but how to build them.
"I was hoping journalists would do a rendering versus reality critique of the last 20 years and like go back against all my competitors and show what their renderings look like and what the building looks like at the end," he said.
"And rate the architects on how well they deliver what they promise, because I know we will win that competition."

Tech for the sake of beautiful buildings
For Cerone, who specializes in production technology, the technology is a means to an end and a way to avoid being "gimmicky".
"All the technology is not for the sake of technology itself but for making these beautiful buildings significant," said Cerone, adding that the studio was in the process of perfecting a system that would allow for a digital database to provide contractors and developers with a library of specs and fabrication elements for each aspect of SHoP's designs.
While the team emphasized the importance of streamlining production and communicating with developers to increase efficiency, they also acknowledged the wealth disparity that some of the projects represent.

SHOP建筑事務所負責人關于設計技術應用的訪談第4張圖片
▲ 曼哈頓西57街111號是世界上最瘦的超高層摩天大樓。 圖片來源:David Sundberg/ESTO
111 W 57th Street in Manhattan is the skinniest supertall skyscraper in the world. Photo is by David Sundberg/ESTO


Pasquarelli說:我是紐約人,我關心這座城市,我知道有些人不喜歡富人街。我理解貧富差距的觀點,但是,如果要改善貧富差距,而且一定要改善,那就盡可能做到最好�!�

他繼續說道:“無論是布魯克林大廈,還是從西57街111號到第七街的項目,我們都與客戶達成了這樣的共識,盡管非常富有的人將住在這棟大樓里,但我們當中的800萬人每天都必須和它生活在一起,所以你在外面花的錢至少要和在里面花的錢一樣多�!�

他們說,工藝和技術驅使他們創造適應當地環境的建筑。

Cerone說:“人們在巴克萊銀行(Barclays)自拍,然后轉過身去,然后在街上和布魯克林大廈(Brooklyn Tower)自拍,他們不知道這些建筑出自同一位建筑師之手�!�

"I'm a New Yorker, and I care about the city and I know there are people that don't like Billionaire's Row," said Pasquarelli. "I get that wealth disparity argument, but, if they're gonna go up – and they're gonna go up – make it the best ones possible."
"Both with the Brooklyn Tower and with 111 W 57th Street, we took the position with our client that though extraordinarily wealthy people are going to live inside of this building, eight million of us have to live with it every day," he continued. "So you need to spend at least as much money on the outside as you do on the inside."
They said that processes and technology drive them to create buildings that adapt to the place.
"People take selfies at Barclays and then they turn around and then take selfies down the street with the Brooklyn Tower," said Cerone. "They don't know they are by the same architects."

SHOP建筑事務所負責人關于設計技術應用的訪談第5張圖片
▲ SHOP事務所稱,人們在和布魯克林大廈(中)自拍。圖片來源:SHOP建筑事務所
People take selfies with the Brooklyn Tower (centre), SHoP said. Photo is courtesy of SHoP Architects


雖然紐約不再是事務所的主營地區,但事務所的負責人相信,他們的設計方法和風格,在形式和功能上的多樣性,已經在這座城市留下了印記,并使他們能夠向國際客戶證明自己的設計能力。

該工作室在全球的建筑包括米蘭和曼谷的大使館,博茨瓦納的一個龐大的政府大樓,以及一座從布魯克林塔獲得靈感的荷蘭摩天大樓。

“所以,在最初的十年左右,我們把重點放在了紐約。一旦我們證明了我們可以建造它們,我們就開始說,好吧,現在,你能在其他地方做到嗎,你能在非洲做到嗎,你能在亞洲做到嗎?”

“現在才剛剛開始�!�

While New York is no longer the primary focus of the firm, the principals believe that their methods and styles, varied in form and function, have made a mark on the city and allowed them to prove themselves to international clients.
The studio's global buildings include embassies in Milan and Bangkok, a sprawling government complex in Botswana and a Dutch skyscraper that takes cues from the Brooklyn Tower.
"So we focused, for the first decade or so, on New York. And once we proved that we could build them, then we just started saying well now, can you do it in other places – can you do it in Africa, and can Asia do it?" said Pasquarelli.
"And it's just now getting out there."




以下是經過編輯的采訪:

Ben Dreith:作為一名學生在紐約開始設計工作,最終負責城市中一些最受關注的建筑,這意味著什么?

Gregg Pasquarelli:我認為我們開始的時間很奇怪。20世紀90年代曾有過一次建筑行業的大衰退。我一開始就使用數字化設計,比如使用動畫軟件。我們是第一批使用3D打印機的。我們剛剛開始數字化,看到了它改變一切。我們工作過的一些人用它來做設計,像弗蘭克·蓋里( Frank Gehry)和格雷格·林恩( Greg Lynn),但他們只是用它來畫畫。

我們很早就想在紐約工作。我們都去了哥倫比亞大學。我們想從這里開始,我們想在紐約的大熔爐里學習,不僅是如何建造更現代的建筑,還想建造具有經濟性的建筑,以及你無法建造的建筑。

所以這些瘋狂的建筑形體出現了,但問題是,我們如何將這些信息提取成美麗的東西?我們很早就開始使用激光切割機和3d打印機,我們早期的一些工作是將數字圖像提取成可見圖像。

此外,一直有一種想法是,建筑設計者與開發者合作并不太好,需要彼此小心。我們說,看,這是紐約。我們都在爭奪這個島的每一寸土地。如果我們不參與并使用開發者的語言,我們將永遠不能真正構建并推動我們所能做建筑設計的極限。所以,我們在使用開發者的語言時,不要責怪他們很難相處,也不要鼓勵他們做得更好,這是事務所最開始的做法。


Ben Dreith:現在數字化渲染非常流行,你知道,這幾乎是主流。當你第一次向開發者提出這些想法時,他們的反應是什么?

Gregg Pasquarelli:他們認為我們完全瘋了。Virgin Atlantic(維珍大西洋航空公司)聘請我們為肯尼迪機場設計頭等艙貴賓室,我們用數字技術制作了屏幕。我們用數字技術制作了屏幕。我們當時和港務局的人打交道,他們有點像在說‘你建造不了這個’,我們說‘是的,你不能,但機器人可以�!麄冋f:‘你別告訴我怎么建�!迥昊虬四旰�,你和同樣的人在一起,他們會說,‘哦,我們將用一個五軸機器人來雕刻它�!�

1998年至2006年間,全世界對該技術應用的認知發生了變化。我們相信這一點,但這是我們能夠與更資深、擁有更多資源的公司競爭的一種方式。這些公司的設計技術太老了,不懂電腦。所以我們正是利用這一優勢,嘗試建造這些建筑。

因此,使用這些數字工具始于PS1。數字技術的應用從我們在長島東端的公園開始。我們在那里做了一個實驗建筑,一個暗箱,這是第一個在小亭子里采用數字化制作的建筑。然后是Porterhouse,這是我們在肉類加工區做的第一座開發建筑,也是第一次對整個立面進行數字制造的建筑,然后這種技術直接導致了巴克萊中心的建成。

我們在紐約的那個大熔爐里,必須高度理論化,在設計上高度激進,但要具有超強的能力,直截了當,對建筑經濟性負責。


Ben Dreith:John,你大概是在設計巴克萊銀行的時候開始工作的。是技術手段的應用吸引你加入這家公司嗎?

John Cerone:是公司的精神吸引了我。在本科階段,設計建模是相對較新的課程。但是人們開始使用3D建模來制作效果圖。我意識到你可以用建模來指導設計。沒有其他地方真正使用這些工具進行生產設計。這使它顯得與眾不同。所以我被公司引進負責制作技術開發,不僅僅是用在渲染器上,我們擁有渲染器,作為一種與建造建筑的人交流的方式,所以使用我們的設計模型,使用工具來創建如何制作部件的設計說明。

Gregg Pasquarelli:我們很早就意識到,平面圖、剖面圖和立面圖是一種糟糕的溝通方式。所以我們有一些建筑師,他們在三維空間中思考得非常好,然后我們把這些信息簡化成二維圖形,交給其他理解你想要做什么的人,然后他們就會閱讀提取這些數據信息。我們試想,為什么要這么做呢?當我們可以把所有這些信息數字化,并發明新的交流方式。如果我們不這樣做,這些建筑就不可能建成。在紐約的大熔爐里做這件事就是我們曾經經歷的證明。所以在最初的十年里,我們專注于紐約市場。一旦我們證明我們能造出來。然后我們開始說,你能在其他地方做嗎?你能在非洲,亞洲做嗎?就好像它才剛剛被開發出來一樣。


Ben Dreith:你的建筑類型涵蓋了許多不同的用途。這些都是從紐約來的嗎?為城市而建,而不是建立一種類型學?

Gregg Pasquarelli:在紐約,每條街都不一樣。每個角落都是不同的。每個社區都不一樣。你走到那條街上,就能感受到那種能量。這就是它的趣味所在。所以也許我們思考建筑的方式是類似的,就像如果我們只是在做超高層,或者我們只是在做圖書館,或者我們只是在做公園,或者我們只是在做NBA體育場,或機場,我們總是看到同樣的東西,那么為什么要這樣做?有趣的是每次都有新的方法出現,我如何解決一個問題?不是我怎么重復這個技術?我想這只是因為我是紐約人。是因為我們對這座城市的愛。


Ben Dreith:既然有了技術創新,為什么維護歷史元素對您來說很重要,比如布魯克林大廈的銀行,或者曼哈頓 57街111號使用了陶土?

Gregg Pasquarelli:我在這里長大,有這樣的背景,有這樣的結構存在。修復建筑是件很麻煩的事,對吧?我也認為這是推動建筑設計方法DNA改變的一部分,對嗎?但是我們能從這里提取出什么,它的背景,它的歷史,敘述,故事,所有這些東西來驅使我們創造一些新鮮的東西,同時回顧和展望未來?所以我有點喜歡在這個地方有一個歷史建筑,盡管這是因為它給你一種歷史紋理,你可以從中吸取設計元素。我覺得這非常有趣。我喜歡看到這些塔樓感覺它們是歷史建筑的一部分,但其實不是。這就是紐約的矛盾。


Ben Dreith:建筑建造設計技術方法如何為人類歷史元素留下空間?

Gregg Pasquarelli:我們的一棟建筑完工了,你看著它,你會覺得,哇,這感覺是一個不可思議的成就。我總是看到人們在我們設計的大樓周圍,他們微笑著,或者指著我,或者對我大喊大叫。我們的建筑不會因為連接到人行道就結束。對吧?這也可能是紐約的事。就像,有這些社區和事情正在發生,有基礎設施和地鐵在公園和開放的空間,并擁有不同角度的光線照射。建筑落入這種能量中并輻射出能量。我喜歡把建筑看作這兩種能量之間的中介。

John Cerone:所以所有的技術都不是為了技術本身,而是為了讓這些美麗的建筑變得有意義。

Gregg Pasquarelli:紐約的建筑密度和這里的人們確實影響了這個項目。

John Cerone:紐約總是在變化。沒有什么是永恒的,但它需要是真實的,人們應該能夠分辨出主動與被動變革的區別。


Ben Dreith:巴克萊中心是如此成功的一個公共空間,它為公眾所看到并使用。你覺得它和布魯克林大廈這樣的建筑有什么不同,每個人都能看到它,但它更加封閉?

Gregg Pasquarelli:一個是私人區域,一個是公共區域,所以它們有所不同。無論是布魯克林大廈還是西57街111號至第七街,我們與客戶達成的立場是,盡管非常富有的人將住在這棟大樓里,但我們每天都有800萬人要住在里面。所以你在外面花的錢至少要和在里面花的一樣多。我們需要考慮細節、材料以及從各個角度看建筑的方式,就像我們考慮公寓如何布局一樣。我還想使得這兩座地標性建筑讓公眾可以進入并融入到建筑中,而不是推倒它們,在外面建一個堡壘,有門衛和保安,建筑允許一定程度的互動。

所以在40英尺處有相互作用,在一個街區之外有相互作用。這是10個街區外的互動。在Laguardia的一種互動,看到建筑的天際線,想想所有這些建筑的天際線層次性都是超級重要的。在111號,因為它在曼哈頓,它是一個系統中的網格,你總是知道建筑的主要和次要的視角。這就是陶器在兩邊而玻璃在另一邊的原因。在布魯克林,所有的網格都是不同的,對吧?它們相互作用。這是唯一一個按照這種高度模式劃分的建筑,我們知道它會有點像布魯克林的帝國大廈。我們想要確保無論你在什么街區上,無論你在布魯克林的哪個地方看它,你感覺你在看向建筑正面。所以建筑的交錯六邊形給了它一種能力,你永遠不會覺得你在看側面或背面,這樣設計的另一用途是你總是在斜面中看到兩個正面。所以通過在建筑上添加紋理,它使建筑看起來很堅固,而不是全是玻璃,我們覺得這很重要�?茨菆怨痰慕ㄖo你一種莊嚴的天際線,它會成為一個錨點,它會成為一個定向裝置,這是我們思考當它從中心向外輻射時需要做什么的一個重要部分。


Ben Dreith:尤其是當它與曼哈頓的其他高樓競爭時。

Gregg Pasquarelli:為什么布魯克林應該有一座二流的大樓?它有真正的天際線。這是一個非常適合居住的地方。不,在這里做嚴肅的建筑。我為我們建造了那座建筑而自豪,我為我們建造了巴克萊中心而自豪。也許有了布魯克林博物館、摩天輪和布魯克林大橋,我們就擁有了布魯克林五大標志性建筑中的兩座,我非常自豪。


Ben Dreith:你對參與設計這些建筑的每個人有什么感覺?

Gregg Pasquarelli:太神奇了。我的意思是,我們的團隊來自世界各地。原來的世貿中心(World Trade Center)在建時,我住在皇后區,從我臥室的窗戶可以看到在建的過程。我保留了貿易中心的樂高模型,當他們建造它的時候,我像個小男孩一樣看著塔。我對自己設計的這些建筑感到無比自豪,這是令人驚訝的,因為我是一個紐約人,我關心這個城市,我知道有些人不喜歡富人街。我理解貧富差距的觀點,但是,如果貧富差距要改善,而且一定要改善,那就盡可能做到最好。

John Cerone:我就住在那兒。人們在巴克萊銀行(Barclays)自拍,然后他們轉過身,然后在街上和布魯克林大廈(Brooklyn Tower)自拍。他們不知道這些建筑出自同一位建筑師之手。但這些都是引起他們興趣的東西,這才是適合設計的東西。人們認為用科技制造的東西需要有特定的外觀。他們不喜歡。但這些建筑可以融入城市立面,并呈現出不同的形式和風格。沒有人會認為陶土,這種歷史材料,會是數字制造的,所以它不應該是技術的外在表現嗎?不,它看起來非常優雅。這當然是非常感性的。它很有音樂。感覺像一架鋼琴。感覺像一座摩天大樓。它像誘惑,像物質,既是新的也是舊的,那時你會想,好吧,是科技把我們帶到了那里。


Ben Dreith:現在技術已經趕上了該領域的其他領域,你還會遇到來自開發者同樣的阻力嗎?

Gregg Pasquarelli:之前,我們必須表現的像一個啦啦隊隊長,像rah-rah科技�,F在他們會說,好吧,我知道它是怎么工作的,哇,這很聰明。我們也希望如此。所以,它更容易擁有。但我認為這仍然是關于建筑的敘述。建筑敘事讓所有人都感到興奮,而技術讓我們能夠創造并讓它發揮作用,并創造出高質量的建筑。

John Cerone:在這一點上他們相信我們。他們相信你展示給他們的圖像,會是這樣的。建筑將會建成這樣。他們相信你會從預算開始建筑設計。

Gregg Pasquarelli:
設計界的架構有一整套設計方法都是這樣的,‘你為什么要給客戶做這樣的決策機會?恰恰相反地。開發人員也是如此。一旦我們和客戶在一起,他們就會覺得自己也參與到游戲中,就像我們在交流一樣,他們就會讓我們隨時進行設計。

我希望記者們能對過去20年的建筑渲染圖與現實建造進行一次批判,然后回顧我所有的競爭對手,展示他們的渲染效果以及最終建成的建筑外觀。并對建筑師的承諾進行評估,因為我知道我們會贏得這場競賽。


Ben Dreith:有沒有什么讓你感到興奮的技術,它們對于即將到來的項目來說是一種新奇的技術,或者是你剛剛開始使用的技術?

John Cerone:可視化工具。我們想先解決一些非常困難的問題,比如我們如何使用計算機制造數百萬個零件,這可以說是建筑設計的一個困難部分。我們先去了那里,然后我們意識到這個行業并沒有建立自動化的生產設計渠道,合同是寫好的。我們還是會上傳圖紙什么的。因此,我們一直在幕后觀望,讓這些技術通過應用程序更容易獲得�,F在,如果你登錄,這是預算的樣子,這是你的項目的狀態,還有一個我們稱之為雞尾酒時間的應用程序。這是對項目狀態實時直觀的訪問。我們需要創建一個平面圖、剖面圖和立面圖以及所有這些傳統設計圖的東西嗎?不,這是一個項目,這是在建的地方。如果你愿意,這里有更多的實時信息。這是透明的溝通。沒有人會打開這些3D建模工具;他們也不應該這么做�?蛻艉秃献髡卟恍枰肋@些粗壯的模型。這很有趣,因為通過直觀的技術為項目創建更多的狀態訪問和透明度,讓我們能夠做更強大、更深入的面向客戶的技術。

Gregg Pasquarelli:是誰在研究這300頁的圖紙?他們只是想了解。比如我在哪里?我的公園在哪里?我的門面在哪里?上面有多少人?同樣的信息傳遞給了外立面的制造商,同樣的信息傳遞給了制造外立面玻璃的人,同樣的信息傳遞給了制造將玻璃固定在外立面上的螺栓的人。圖紙使得建筑信息對每個人都透明。

John Cerone:我們允許人們在他們的建筑建成前兩年進入建筑場地。在這個過程的早期,您會看到類似于時間線末尾的渲染效果圖。我們可以在第一個月就實現概念設計方案�?蛻粼诮ㄖ䦂龅乩�,可以以更有趣的方式做出決定。

這不是噱頭。你創造任何一種技術解決方案的唯一原因是用一個小團隊快速解決一些迫在眉睫的問題。最后,你就有一套設計路線圖。這就是數字化設計項目的方式。我們在基于云的系統中,我們可以在紐約地設計中心完成所有這些工作,你知道,項目協調到最后,然后所有設計信息發送出去。

Read on for the edited interview:
Ben Dreith: What has it meant to start designing in New York as student and wind up being responsible for some of the most talked-about buildings in the city?
Gregg Pasquarelli: I think we started at a very odd time; there was a big recession in the 1990s. And I was part of the beginning of using the digital to design like using animation software. We were using some of the first 3D printers. We were at the very beginning of the digital and saw how it was going to transform things. And some of the people we worked for were using it, like Frank Gehry and Greg Lynn, but they were using it for drawing.
We very early on wanted to work in New York. We all went to Columbia. We wanted to start here, we wanted to learn in the pressure cooker of New York, like not only how to make radical buildings, but buildings that made financial sense and also buildings that you couldn't make.
So these crazy shapes were coming but the question was 'how do we extract that information out into something beautiful?'. We were very early into laser cutters and 3d printers and some of our early work was experimentation on the extraction of the digital into the visible.
Also, there was always an idea that working with developers was bad and to watch out for it. We were like, look this is New York. We're all fighting over every inch of this island. If we don't engage and speak in the language of the developers, we're not going to ever really be able to build and push the limits of what we can do. So instead of blaming them for being difficult, we speak their language and inspire them to do better, that was very much at the firm at the beginning.

Ben Dreith: It's so popular now doing digital renders and it's you know, it's just pretty much the mainstream. What was the reaction when you first came to developers with these ideas?
Gregg Pasquarelli: They thought we were completely nuts. Virgin Atlantic hired us for the first class lounge at JFK, and we digitally made the screens. We were dealing with The Port Authority guys, and they were kind of like 'you can't build this' and we said 'yeah, you can't but robots can.' And they said 'don't you tell me how to build.' Then like five or eight years later, you're with the same guys and they were like, 'Oh, we'll get a five-axis mill robot to carve that.'
Between 1998 and 2006, the whole world changed in its understanding of using that technology. We believed in it, but it was a way for us to be able to compete with firms that were much older and had more resources. 'They're too old to understand the computer. So let's take that to our advantage to try and be able to build these buildings,' we said.
So using these digital tools started with PS1. It started at our park on the east end of Long Island. And we did an experimental building there, a camera obscura, which was the first building where every single part of the building was digitally fabricated in this little pavilion. And then it goes to the Porter House, which was the first development building we did in Meatpacking District and was the first time an entire facade was digitally fabricated, and then that technology leads directly to being able to pull the Barclay Center.
We were put in that pressure cooker in New York, and had to be highly theoretical, highly radical in design, but super competent, and, and straightforward and financially responsible.

Ben Dreith: John, you began around the time of Barclays. Was the technological approach something that attracted you to the firm?
John Cerone: The ethos of the firm is what brought me. Modelling for design was relatively new in undergrad. But people were getting into [3D] modelling to make renderings. I realized you could use modelling for instruction. There were no other places that were genuinely using these tools for production. And that distinguished itself. So I was brought in for production technology, of using it not just for renderers – we had renderers – but as a way to communicate with people making the buildings so take our design models, use the tools to create instructions for how to make pieces.
Gregg Pasquarelli: We learned very early on that this idea of plan section and elevation is a bad way to communicate. So you've got people who are architects who are thinking incredibly well in three dimensions, and then we reduce this information to a 2D section, handing it to other people who understand what you're trying to do, then they have to extract that. We were like why are we pushing it through this process? When we can take the digital that's got all this other information and invent new ways of communicating. And if we didn't, there's no way these buildings get built. And to do it in the pressure cooker of New York was the proof that we had to go through. So we focused for the first decade or so on New York. And once we proved that we could build them. Then we just started saying well now can you do it in other places can you do in Africa, and Asia can do it? And like it's just now getting out there.

Ben Dreith: Your building types cover many different uses. Does this come from New York? From building for the city rather than kind of building a typology?
Gregg Pasquarelli: In New York, every street is different. Every corner is different. Every neighbourhood is different. You get on that street and there's that energy. That's what makes it an interesting place. And so maybe there's a similar way that we think about architecture in the sense that it's like if we're just doing towers, or we're just doing libraries, or we're just doing parks, or we're just doing NBA arenas, or airports, it's seeing the same thing all the time, why do that? What's interesting is every time coming out with a fresh approach, How do I solve a problem? Not how do I repeat the technology? I think that just comes from being New Yorkers. We love that.

Ben Dreith: Coupled with technological innovation, why is it important for you to maintain historical aspects like maintaining the bank for the Brooklyn Tower or using terracotta for 111 W 57?
Gregg Pasquarelli: I did grow up here and there's this background, there's a fabric that exists. Restoring a building is a pain in the ass, right? I also think that it's part of the DNA that helps drive the design of the building, right? But what can we extract from what's here, its context, its history, the narrative, the story, all that stuff to drive us to make something new and fresh, that looks back and forward simultaneously? So I kind of love having a historic building on the site, because it gives you a kind of texture that you can draw from. And I find that super interesting. I love seeing these towers that feel like they're part of a historic building but are not. That contradiction in New York.

Ben Dreith: How does the technological approach still leave room for the human element?
Gregg Pasquarelli: One of our buildings gets done and it's like you're looking at it and you're like, wow, that feels like an incredible accomplishment. I always see people around our buildings and they're smiling or they're pointing or they're yelling at me. A building for us doesn't end when the building hits the sidewalk. Right? Like, and this might be a New York thing, too. It's like, there are these neighbourhoods and stuff is happening and there's infrastructure and subway in parks and open space and light hits differently. And the building drops into this energy and it radiates energy out. I like to think of the building as the mediator between these two energies.
John Cerone: So all the technology is not for the sake of technology itself but for making these beautiful buildings significant.
Gregg Pasquarelli: And the intensity of New York and the people here really affect the program.
John Cerone: New York is always changing. Nothing is permanent, but it needs to be authentic and people can tell when something is forced, not authentic.

Ben Dreith: The Barclays Center is such a public space, it's so seen and used by the public. How do you feel about the contrast between that and something like the Brooklyn Tower, which everyone sees, but then has an aspect of being more closed?
Gregg Pasquarelli: One is private and one is a public forum, so they're going to be different. Both with the Brooklyn Tower and with 111 W 57th Street, we took the position with our client that though extraordinarily wealthy people are going to live inside of this building, eight million of us have to live with it every day. So you need to spend at least as much money on the outside as you do on the inside. We need to think about the detailing and the materiality and the way that the building is viewed from all over as much as we think about how the apartments are laid out. And I think also saving the two landmark buildings and making them publicly accessible and integrated into the building, as opposed to knocking them down and building a fortress with like doorman and security on the outside allows a certain amount of interaction.
So there's the interaction at 40 feet there's the interaction from a block away. There's the interaction from 10 blocks away. There's the interaction flying in LaGuardia, seeing buildings on the skyline, and thinking about them that all those levels are super important. On 111, because it's in Manhattan, and it's a grid, you always know the primary and secondary way the building is going to be viewed. And that's why the terracotta is on two sides and the glass is on the other. In Brooklyn, all the grids are different, right? They all collide. And this building, which is the only one zoned for that kind of height, we knew would be kind of like the Empire State Building of Brooklyn. We wanted to make sure that no matter what grid you were on, looking at it from wherever you were in Brooklyn, you felt like you were looking at the front. And so the interlocking hexagons of the building kind of gave it that ability that you never felt like you were looking at the side or the back and the other thing that that did was you're always looking at two facades in the oblique. And so by putting the texture on the building, it made the building look solid, not all glass, and we felt that that was important. To see that solid building gives you the kind of gravitas on the skyline and it becomes this anchor, it becomes an orienting device and that was a huge part of how we were thinking about what it needed to do when it radiates out from the center.

Ben Dreith: Especially when it's competing with towers in Manhattan.
Gregg Pasquarelli: Why should Brooklyn have a second-grade tower? It's got a real skyline. It's a fantastic place to live. No, make serious architecture here. I'm proud that we did that building and I'm proud that we did the Barclays Center. Maybe with the Brooklyn Museum, the Wonder Wheel, and the Brooklyn Bridge, we got two of the top five buildings in Brooklyn, and I'm super proud.

Ben Dreith: How does it feel for you and for everyone involved to work on these buildings?
Gregg Pasquarelli: It's amazing. I mean, our team is from all over the world. I lived in Queens when the original World Trade Center was going up, and I could see the construction from my bedroom window. And I kept the LEGO model of the Trade Center as they were building it, so I was like looking at towers as a little boy. It's amazing how unbelievably proud I am of these buildings I’ve worked on because I'm a New Yorker, and I care about the city and I know some people don't like Billionaire's Row. I get that wealth disparity argument, but, if they're gonna go up, and they're gonna go up, make it the best one possible.
John Cerone: I live right by there. People take selfies at Barclays and then they turn around and then take selfies down the street with the Brooklyn Tower. They don't know they are by the same architects. But then those are the things that drive their interests and that's what works and fits the design. It's the process. People think things made with technology need to look a certain way. And they don’t. They can fit into the fabric and take on different forms and styles. No one would think terracotta, this historical material, would be digitally fabricated, so shouldn’t it be "techie" looking? No, it looks incredibly elegant. It's certainly very sensual. It's very musical. It feels like a piano. It feels like a skyscraper. It feels like seduction, feels like material, it feels old and it feels new. Like that's when you're like okay, that technology got us there.

Ben Dreith: Now that technology has caught up to the rest of the field, do you still have the same resistance from developers?
Gregg Pasquarelli: Before we had to be like a total cheerleader, like rah rah technology. Now they're like, okay, I see how it works like, wow, that was smart. And we want that too. So it's, it's much easier to have. But I think it's still the narrative about the building. Narrative gets everyone excited, and then it is the technology that allows us to build it and make it work and get that kind of quality building.
John Cerone: They believe us at this point. They believe that the image that you're showing them, will look like this. It will.
Gregg Pasquarelli: And there's a whole side of the architecture in the design community that's like, 'why would you give to clients the power to make decisions?' It's the opposite. It was the same thing with the developers. Once we were in with them and they felt like they had skin in the game and like we were communicating, they let us design whenever we wanted.
I was hoping journalists would do a rendering versus reality critique of the last 20 years and like go back against all my competitors and show what their renderings look like and what the building looks like at the end. And rate the architects on how well they deliver what they promise because I know we will win that competition.

Ben Dreith: Are there any technologies that you're excited about that they're kind of novel for any upcoming projects or that you're kind of just starting to work with?
John Cerone: Visualization tools. We wanted to solve very hard problems first like how do we use computers to make millions of parts — that is arguably a hard part of the building. We went there first and then we realized that the industry isn't set up to automate a production pipeline. We still upload the drawings and all that. So we've been sort of on the sidelines behind the scenes making the technologies more accessible through applications. Now, if you log in, here's what the budget looks like, here’s the status of your project, and one we call a kind of cocktail hour app. Here's intuitive access to the project in real-time. Do we need to create a plan section and elevation and all these traditional things? No, here's a project and here's where it is under construction. If you'd like, there's more information in real-time. It’s communication with transparency. No one's gonna open up these 3D modelling tools; they shouldn't have to. Clients and collaborators don't need to know the thick models. It's interesting because creating more access and transparency to the projects through intuitive technology allows us to do more robust and deeper client-facing technology.
Gregg Pasquarelli: Who goes into these three hundred pages of drawings? They want to just see it. Like 'where am I? Where are my parks? Where's my facade? How many are up there?' And the same information goes to the facade manufacturer, the same information goes to the guy that is making the glass that goes into the facade, same information goes to the guy that makes the bolt that holds the glass into the facade. It makes it transparent for everyone.
John Cerone: We're allowing people to walk through their building two years before they exist. Early in the process, you’re seeing renderings that are like the end of the timeline. We could do it in concept in like the first month. They're inside their space and they can begin to make decisions, in much more interesting ways.
It's not gimmicky. You only reason you create any kind of technological solution was to solve some immediate problem quickly with a small team. So at the end of this, you have a roadmap. This is the way to do projects digitally. We're in cloud-based systems, we can do all of this work from here in New York design, you know, the project coordinated down to the bolt, and then send those things out.

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